Namely, these conversations have so far revolved around Kyle Lowry, Mike Conley and Paul himself if he opts out of his contract with the Suns. According to sources, the Mavericks, looking to ease the burden on Luka Doncic, have shown interest in both Conley and Lowry, the latter of whom stands to have his pick of money and championship contender — and potentially both.
The Philadelphia 76ers, who have been exploring trade possibilities with Simmons in recent weeks, are also expected to be in the Lowry sweepstakes via a sign-and-trade with the Raptors, who have expressed a willingness to do so if they can't keep their franchise guard, sources say.
The Sixers and Heat were unable to secure trades for him this past season. At that time, the Raptors’ asking price was too steep. Lowry also wanted some indication that his potential destination would be willing to provide a two-year extension of at least $25 million per year, sources said. He made $30 million in the final year of his Raptors deal. Apparently, his salary demands haven’t changed. A league source confirmed that Lowry’s free-agency asking price is $90 million over three seasons.
Not only is he a six-time All-Star, Lowry knows how to run a team. He’s a winner, a leader, and possesses a toughness that would benefit the Sixers. Adding him to the mix with Joel Embiid and Tobias Harris would put the Sixers in great position to advance to the NBA Finals. “If there’s a sign-and-trade [with the Sixers] that can be done that can get him there, and he gets $25 to $30 million, he will consider it,” a source said.
NBA Central: Adrian Wojnarowski expects a 'big market' for Kyle Lowry "You’re talking potentially $25 million-$30 million a year for Kyle Lowry, it’s going to be expensive to get at him in free agency or sign-and-trade."
Kyle Lowry: Today was a crazy day but the love I got from everyone has been amazing thank you all for making it known I’m loved and for all the birthday wishes !!! #ageless😂😂 instagram.com/p/CM3Oijhl8Ts/…
Adrian Wojnarowski: In making trade offers for Kyle Lowry, teams had to take into consideration whether he would turn out to be a rental for the season --- or if they would be able to meet his contract expectations to stay in free agency. That impacted how far teams were willing to go on him.
Adrian Wojnarowski: In the end, Masai Ujiri didn't find a package that compelled him to trade Kyle Lowry -- and Lowry had always been fine with completing the season with the Raptors, sources tell ESPN. Now, Lowry can head to free agency in the summer.
Tim Reynolds: Confirming: There is an agreement between the Rockets and the Heat. @Adrian Wojnarowski first ... and Miami was in on Lowry all the way to the end. Victor Oladipo gets what he has wanted for a long time. He's joining the Heat.
Adrian Wojnarowski: The Raptors are keeping Kyle Lowry, source tells ESPN.
Anthony Chiang: ESPN's Ramona Shelburne said Duncan Robinson texted her earlier on trade deadline day: "I don't know if I should take my pregame nap." Robinson seems to be at the center of the Heat's trade offer for Kyle Lowry.
Marc Stein: After the 76ers acquired George Hill, one source close to the Kyle Lowry talks said it was "too strong" to rule them all the way out of the Lowry chase -- saying only that Philly's chances had lessened.
Ira Winderman: ESPN's Windhorst says Raptors now soliciting final offers for Lowry, 15 minutes from deadline.
David Hardisty: Brian Windhorst says the Miami Heat and Toronto Raptors are playing a game of Chicken on Kyle Lowry. That's holding up this market.
The Jump: "The feeling is that the Raptors are in a box here and teams are not willing to bend" - @Brian Windhorst #NBA #NBATwitter #TheJump #WeTheNorth
The word is that the Lakers are still talking to Toronto (via ESPN). My sources there say the Lakers have definitely shown interest (nothing new there). One thing to consider -- the Raptors aren't really going into a full rebuild. Dennis Schroder/Fred VanVleet/Pascal Siakam/OG Anunoby/Chris Boucher....that's got to be appealing to them, especially if Miami won't include Tyler Herro. Would be fascinating if the Lakers don't do the deal because of THT. If that's the case, they'd have to believe Talen can help them win now and will be REALLY good in the future.
Stadium: "The Raptors are seriously engaged with the Los Angeles Lakers and Miami Heat on a trade to move Kyle Lowry out." Watch the "Shams Cam" LIVE for updates from our #NBA Insider @ShamsCharania :
Steve Popper: Don't know if anything comes of it but hearing Knicks could be involved in using cap space in facilitating a Lowry deal if Toronto sends him to Lakers.
The veracity of reports coming from all corners of the league has been questioned by multiple sources who spoke with PhillyVoice on the condition of anonymity. The widespread belief is that Masai Ujiri is trying to spark a bidding war among the contenders interested in Lowry's services, with the offers more restrained than the Raptors were and are hoping for.
Meanwhile, the Sixers are believed to be the frontrunners for the veteran guard's services. According to Windhorst, Kyle Lowry is "preparing to be traded to the 76ers" on Thursday after the Raptors let teams know who the leaders in the Lowry race are. "The Toronto Raptors have let people know this morning that the two teams in the lead for Kyle Lowry are the Philly 76ers and the Lakers, with Philly in first position right now. That puts the Heat in third place. Kyle Lowry is preparing to be traded to the 76ers.
Kyle Neubeck: The Sixers do not see themselves as the current leader in discussions for Lowry, and are continuing to pursue other trade options as we approach the deadline, according to league sources
Most recently the Los Angeles Lakers have reportedly emerged as one of the teams interested in acquiring Kyle Lowry via a trade. However, NBA insider Brian Windhorst does not believe there is substance to such reports. Instead, he thinks that the rumor was facilitated by Lowry’s current team the Toronto Raptors. “Yesterday there were some rumors going around that the Los Angeles Lakers were interested in trading for Kyle Lowry as well. Frankly, I don’t believe that it’s true,” Windhorst said on ESPN’s First Take. “I think that’s a smokescreen thrown up by Toronto because they’re trying to get better offers out of Miami and Philadelphia.
NBA Central: The Miami Heat are offering Duncan Robinson for Kyle Lowry, per @Brian Windhorst Tyler Herro is still not in the offer. pic.twitter.com/Sdur4pAQSt
Justin Grasso: A couple of notes from @Brian Windhorst just now: - #Raptors aren’t thrilled with offers for Lowry right now - #Heat and #Sixers are really the only two involved, #Lakers interest is “smokescreen” - TOR wants Maxey, Thybulle, 2 first rd picks
As trade deadline day gets going, here is what I am hearing around Kyle Lowry, according to sources: Toronto is seriously engaged with Miami, Philadelphia and the Lakers on a potential deal. The Raptors are expected to canvass interest in their franchise staple as the deadline nears and decide whether the best offer meets their price tag.
Up until recently, the chances of a Lowry trade seemed slim. As of last week, the Raptors were still telling inquiring teams that they did not intend on moving their point guard ahead of the deadline, and according to sources, Lowry and his representatives fully expected him to finish the season with Toronto before hitting unrestricted free agency this summer. While the Raptors have not been soliciting offers for Lowry, as multiple reports have indicated, they’ve become more inclined to listen over the past few days, with the Miami Heat and Philadelphia 76ers emerging as frontrunners to land the 15-year vet if he is in fact moved.
It will hinge on a few factors. For one, what does Lowry want? He doesn’t have a no-trade clause, but with all the goodwill and mutual respect built up between player and franchise, the Raptors want to do right by him. They’re also not going to trade him just because they can, especially if he’s content playing out the season. It could be standard day-before-the-deadline posturing, but as of Wednesday night, sources confirmed that both Miami and Philly have been reluctant to push their chips in and make their best offers.
The prideful competitor left the floor. Toronto Raptors guard Kyle Lowry saw a camera tracking him as he walked through the entrance tunnel. Lowry held out two fingers with both of his hands and waved, an image that may have represented his final moment as a Raptors player on the eve of the NBA trade deadline. "Usually I (BS) y'all. But it was kind of weird tonight not knowing what the next step would be," Lowry said following the Raptors’ 135-111 win over the Denver Nuggets on Wednesday. "Just with understanding there are things that could possibly be done on the front of me and the other guys on our team and the organization."
Tim Bontemps: Kyle Lowry has insisted he doesn't know what's going to happen between now and 3pm tomorrow throughout his more than 20-minute media session tonight, but it certainly felt like the last time he will speak as a Toronto Raptor. We'll find out over the next 16 hours if that's true.
Josh Lewenberg: Kyle Lowry: "I'm going to be honest, usually I bulls*** y'all, but it was kinda weird tonight not knowing what the next step will be... Who knows what's going to happen? I don't know what's going to happen but tonight was definitely different."
Lori Ewing: Nick Nurse, when asked if this might be his last game coaching Lowry/Powell, said "99.9 per cent of (trade rumours) is non-truth." Says he approaches every game like it's his last time coaching all of the players.
Add Raptors shooting guard Norman Powell to the list of persons of interest for the Knicks before Thursday’s trade deadline. While the Raptors are shopping point guard Kyle Lowry, the Knicks have much more interest in Powell, who is expected to opt out to become an unrestricted free agent following the season.
Jake Fischer: Of note regarding the Kyle Lowry-Lakers rumors: It seems Los Angeles became open to discussing all of Dennis Schroder, Montrezl Harrell and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope with rival teams as of Monday night, and that chatter has not since quieted among league executives.
The Jump: "The Heat and Sixers are leaders in the clubhouse for Kyle Lowry. He wants assurances for which ever team he goes to" - MacMullan #NBA #NBATwitter #TheJump #WeTheNorth pic.twitter.com/ueWa8wXTn3
The Jump: "The Raptors are on the verge of a monumental moment in franchise history maybe trading the greatest players in franchise history in Kyle Lowry. This may go all the way to the wire" - @Zach Lowe #NBA #NBATwitter #TheJump #WeTheNorth
Kevin O'Connor: (The Raptors) aren't even sure they want to trade Lowry. Toronto is split in their front office whether to deal him or not, which is why it's a thing that comes down to Lowry and Masai Ujiri more than anybody else
Philadelphia and Miami have engaged Toronto on Lowry, and league sources say there are several more teams in both the Eastern and Western Conferences giving Toronto president Masai Ujiri and general manager Bobby Webster reason to weigh the possibility of accepting a return of future assets instead of leaning on Lowry for one final playoffs run.
A trade to the Sixers would represent a return home, but Lowry has had an open mind about a number of potential destinations, sources said. Lowry doesn't have veto power over a trade, but Raptors management is taking into consideration Lowry's wishes, given his monumental role in the franchise's rise to perennial playoff contention, a 2019 NBA Championship and his place in Canadian sporting lore.
The Sixers and Miami Heat are having talks with the Toronto Raptors to acquire the six-time All-Star point guard in a trade. However, Lowry, 34, wants some indication that a potential destination is willing to give him a two-year extension at a minimum $25 million a year, according to sources. He’s making $30 million in the final year of his Raptors deal.
The Raptors would like Sixers rookie guard Tyrese Maxey or second-year shooting guard Matisse Thybulle included in a package for Lowry. However, a league source said the Sixers aren’t willing to part ways with Thybulle, one of the league’s best young defenders.
A league executive thinks a package of Danny Green, Tony Bradley, Mike Scott, Maxey and a draft pick could get the deal done if Toronto can create available roster spots to match up salaries. Green, Bradley, and Scott are all in the final year of their deals. So the Sixers would basically be giving up Maxey and a draft pick. There’s a report that the Sixers are willing to include a first-round pick.
The 76ers remain interested in acquiring Raptors guard Kyle Lowry, and rookie guard Tyrese Maxey is among the assets available as part of a trade package, league sources told HoopsHype. Maxey has shown flashes of potential, including a 39-point game in January against the Nuggets.
Miami, the other frontrunner to acquire Lowry, had a starting offer of Goran Dragic, Kelly Olynyk, and Kendrick Nunn, as HoopsHype reported. Since then, Duncan Robinson, a restricted free agent who is considered the top shooter available this offseason, has emerged as a potential candidate to be included in the Lowry trade.
Philadelphia has also received calls on standout defender Matisse Thybulle from several teams around the league, sources told HoopsHype. Some general managers across the league believe the inclusion of Thybulle in a trade offer could swing the bidding for Lowry’s services, but the 76ers are reluctant to part with him.
Tim Reynolds: All I can say is this: It's absolutely true that if Kyle Lowry leaves Toronto, his pick of landing spots would be Miami. And I do think he'll be with the Heat next season. I'm just not sure yet about whether he will be later this week.
Brian Windhorst: “I know that Miami is interested in Kyle Lowry. I know Jimmy Butler would love to play with him. And they have the young assets and tradable contracts to make it happen.”
NBA Central: "Kyle Lowry's free agency is happening right now. The expectation is that Kyle Lowry is going to have a new contract by the end of this week. It's either going to be to stay in Toronto . . . it's going to be Miami or it's going to be Philadelphia." - Brian Windhorst
Marc Stein: A big week looms for the Miami Heat, who continue to strongly covet Kyle Lowry via trade and who league sources increasingly peg as the most likely landing spot for LaMarcus Aldridge -- provided San Antonio can't find an Aldridge trade before Thursday's deadline and buys him out.
The Heat remain active. They have kept tabs on Kyle Lowry, sources said, though it might be hard for Miami to cobble an attractive enough package given they cannot trade any first-round picks unless they lift protections on the 2023 pick they owe (who else?) the Oklahoma City Thunder. The Heat do have some interesting youngish players in Duncan Robinson, Kendrick Nunn, KZ Okpala and Precious Achiuwa -- with both Robinson and Nunn headed into free agency this summer. (Despite his uneven Year 2, I'd be surprised if the Heat included Tyler Herro in any Lowry deal.)
The Miami Heat and Philadelphia 76ers are leaders in pursuit to acquire Lowry, sources told The Athletic, and several rival team executives are monitoring the situation as well as which young player or asset either team could part with. Lowry has spent the last nine years in Toronto, cementing himself as a legacy player for the Raptors and as arguably the best player in franchise history. Lowry’s arrival in Toronto predated Masai Ujiri’s presidency, and to fans, he represents a through line that connects the Raptors’ fight for relevancy at the beginning of his time with the franchise to their current status as one of the league’s most respected organizations.
Michael Grange: Kyle Lowry on trade deadline: “it’s my birthday week.” Says he’s turning 30 on Thursday. I told him I’m about to to turn 39.
League sources say the Heat are pursuing a deal for Raptors point guard Kyle Lowry harder than anyone, though the Clippers and Sixers retain interest. Lowry recently said he wants to retire with the Raptors even if he needs to sign a one-day contract. But if he gets dealt, league sources say his preferred destination is Miami because of his close friendship with Jimmy Butler. The Heat are also considered by front-office executives as one of the favorites to land LaMarcus Aldridge if the Spurs buy out the veteran big. The Trail Blazers are also a threat to acquire Aldridge, sources say.
Marc Stein: Must add here that the prospect of Toronto trading Kyle Lowry, six times an All-Star, still looms as a possibility as the deadline nears. Lowry made it clear he hopes to retire as a Raptor someday, but sources say interest in the free agent-to-be (Philly/Miami/others) persists.
The Miami Heat reportedly could be in line to make some big moves leading up to Thursday's NBA trade deadline. During an appearance on SportsCenter on Sunday, ESPN NBA insider Brian Windhorst said the Heat "covet" point guard Kyle Lowry in a potential trade with the Toronto Raptors.
Woj was even asked again at the end of the episode if he felt that Lowry would be dealt at the deadline. He responded: “I think he could. I still think Toronto will give him a lot of voice [in regards to] if he wants to be moved and where he would like to play. I know Masai Ujiri won’t send Kyle Lowry to an outpost, or place that he doesn’t have interest being in.”
According to sources, teams inquiring into Lowry’s availability have been told that the Raptors do not intend to move him. You can never say never in the NBA, but as of now it seems likely that the six-time all-star – and arguably the greatest player in the franchise’s history – will finish the season with Toronto.
Lowry stands out as the lone true game-changing player should the Raptors decide to move on. "I would say they hold," said a West scout. "I just don't get the feeling it's going to happen, though maybe they're just waiting for the right offer."
Lowry's large contract creates trade obstacles. A team that's over the cap must send out nearly $25 million in matching salaries to make a deal work. Still, after a long list of big names have changed teams since the summer of 2019 -- including Jrue Holiday and James Harden joining Eastern Conference contenders over the past five months -- Lowry stands out as the lone true game-changing player should the Raptors decide to move on. "I would say they hold," said a West scout. "I just don't get the feeling it's going to happen, though maybe they're just waiting for the right offer."
Beyond Lowry’s wishes, there’s the financial factor that — as I wrote here recently — is complicating matters and making it very plausible that he remains. He’s making $30.5 million in this final season of his deal, and matching that kind of money isn’t easy for any suitor. Sources say the Clippers, who have been tied to the Lowry situation, are very unlikely to pursue him because of that component.
Tim Bontemps: Kyle Lowry: "Philadelphia will always be home for me, but Toronto will always be my second home ... it's allowed me grow into the man and player I am today."
Eric Koreen: Lowry says he will retire as a Raptor, even if it’s on a one-day contract. But he says he, Raptors and any other team all have to do what’s best for them in the future.
Tim Bontemps: Kyle Lowry said he doesn't pay attention to rumors, but took exception to words being put in his mouth about wanting out of Toronto. He said Mark Bartelstein will discuss things with the front office but that his relationship with Masai Ujiri and Bobby Webster is strong.
Lowry is not going to be dealt before the March 25 trade deadline. It’s not that the Raptors and Lowry haven’t mulled over the pros and cons of making a mutually agreeable deal for the 15-year veteran heading into free agency, or that there isn’t interest in the six-time all-star who comes with a shipping container’s full of intangibles along with averages of 18 points, 5.5 rebounds and seven assists per game along with 40.3 per cent shooting from deep -- all marks that are in the neighbourhood of his career peaks.
Beyond that context, surveying the market and assessing where the Raptors are, it’s more and more clear the chances of a deal happening are remote and the notion that Lowry is pushing for one is far-fetched. Lowry made his position quite clear the other day via his Instagram story, but multiple league sources I’ve spoken with over the past two weeks who have reason to know Lowry’s thinking has echoed the theme. The persistence of the speculation is a nuisance, even if the reporting of it is understandable.
“It’s frustrating from our perspective. A story comes out that Kyle’s told everybody he’s out. That’s just blatantly not true,” said Bartelstein. “It’s just 1,000 per cent not true. Are there a lot of teams around the NBA that want Kyle? Yeah, who wouldn’t want an all-star point guard. There are certainly teams that know that he’s in the last year of his deal and this is the time of year where every team is talking to every team about a lot of things, and there’s a lot of people that would love to get Kyle Lowry, but his focus right now is on winning for the Toronto Raptors. He has clearly not told anybody that he wants out of Toronto. Masai and Bobby and I talk all the time. You can never put anything in concrete in this business, things change, but there is literally nothing to all this chatter about Kyle wanting out or telling his team he wants to go there. That’s just not true.”
Speaking of teams heading in the wrong direction, Toronto losing four of five games before the break would seemingly up the odds of the Raptors (17-19) becoming ‘sellers.’ But when it comes to future Hall of Famer Kyle Lowry, there’s a strong sense around the league that the size of this final season on his deal ($30.5 million) may ultimately result in him staying put.
Whether it’s that scenario or any other, the sheer number of moving financial parts likely required to get a Lowry deal done would be a hindrance. The Clippers, sources say, are another team that is known to have pondered the Lowry possibility but appears to have been dissuaded by the contract obstacle.
Justin Grasso: Yesterday, it was reported that #Raptors’ Kyle Lowry has been telling “everybody for a month that he’s getting traded.” Lowry responded today on Instagram..... pic.twitter.com/ij6RQaTeXS
Bill Simmons: Should Toronto trade Kyle Lowry? Ryen Russillo: The word on that one is that Lowry has been telling everybody for over a month that he is getting traded, which is interesting that he's already like 'yeah, I'm out of here'. So I don't know if that's him saying it, I don't know if that's some understanding that he has with the front office, I don't know that part of it, but whenever you ask about Lowry, they're like 'he thinks he's leaving.'
Those are big enough that the Heat can likely satisfy the league’s salary-matching rules should they bring in a high-salaried star. John Wall and Kyle Lowry are potential targets.
The consensus of TrueHoop sources is that the eight games between the All-Star break and the trade deadline will mean a lot in assessing how good the Heat are,” Haberstroh wrote. “They play the Magic twice, Bulls, Cavs, Grizzlies, Pacers twice, and Suns. If the Heat decide to make a deal, rival executives wonder if a package centered on Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, and Rising Star rookie Precious Achiuwa could net another star. Heat brass have shrewdly signed Kelly Olynyk and Meyers Leonard to mid-tier contracts ($12.6 and $9.4 million respectively). Those are big enough that the Heat can likely satisfy the league’s salary-matching rules should they bring in a high-salaried star. John Wall and Kyle Lowry are potential targets.
Josh Lewenberg: Life advice from Kyle Lowry (re: state of the world): "I'm going to be honest with you, I have no stress at all. I don't stress. There's no stress. Why would I be stressed for? Things are going to happen, some things you can control, so you control what you can control."
"There was a story about how he is pushing to go to Philadelphia, that's just not true." Kyle Lowry's agent, Mark Bartelstein, tells @TermineRadio & @Jumpshot8 the Raptors point guard isn't go anywhere.
September 26, 2021 | 6:15 am EDT Update
“The NBA should insist that all players and staff are vaccinated or remove them from the team,” NBA legend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tells Rolling Stone. “There is no room for players who are willing to risk the health and lives of their teammates, the staff and the fans simply because they are unable to grasp the seriousness of the situation or do the necessary research. What I find especially disingenuous about the vaccine deniers is their arrogance at disbelieving immunology and other medical experts. Yet, if their child was sick or they themselves needed emergency medical treatment, how quickly would they do exactly what those same experts told them to do?”
Irving, who serves as a vice president on the executive committee of the players’ union, recently started following and liking Instagram posts from a conspiracy theorist who claims that “secret societies” are implanting vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for “a plan of Satan.” This Moderna microchip misinformation campaign has spread across multiple NBA locker rooms and group chats, according to several of the dozen-plus current players, Hall-of-Famers, league executives, arena workers and virologists interviewed for this story over the past week.
When asked directly about Irving’s vaccination status — or his plans to change it — multiple people familiar with his thinking declined to answer directly. But one confidant and family member floated to Rolling Stone the idea of anti-vaxx players skipping home games to dodge the New York City ordinance… or at least threatening to protest them, until the NBA changes its ways.
“There are so many other players outside of him who are opting out, I would like to think they would make a way,” says Kyrie’s aunt, Tyki Irving, who runs the seven-time All-Star’s family foundation and is one of the few people in his regular circle of advisors. “It could be like every third game. So it still gives you a full season of being interactive and being on the court, but with the limitations that they’re, of course, oppressing upon you. There can be some sort of formula where the NBA and the players can come to some sort of agreement.”
A spokeswoman for Irving declined to respond to a list of questions regarding his vaccination and playing status, and Irving did not immediately respond to a message from Rolling Stone. But as teams return to pre-season training camps next week, fifty to sixty NBA players have yet to receive a single vaccine dose, league sources tell RS. Most are considered merely reluctant skeptics. Some of the holdouts, however, amount to their own shadow roster of anti-vaxxers mounting a behind-the-scenes resistance to Covid protocols — and the truth.
Isaac considers un-vaxxed players to be vilified and bullied, and he thinks “it’s an injustice” to automatically make heroes out of vaccinated celebrities. He rejects the NBA’s proposal for a vaccine mandate and social distancing for players like him during team travel: “You can play on the same court. We can touch the same ball. We can bump chests. We can do all those things on the court. And then when it comes to being on the bus, we have to be in different parts of the bus? To me, it doesn’t seem logically consistent. “If you are vaccinated, in other places you still have to wear the mask regardless. It’s like, ‘OK, then what is the mask necessarily for?’” Isaac continues. “And if Kyrie says that from his position of his executive power in the NBPA, then kudos to him.”
Enes Kanter — the veteran center, devout Muslim and outspoken liberal — senses a creep of the religious right upon his workplace, which just happens to involve players like Isaac sweating all over him and yelling in his face: “If a guy’s not getting vaccinated because of his religion, I feel like we are in a time where the religion and science has to go to together,” he tells RS. “I’ve talked to a lot of religious guys — I’m like: ‘It saves people’s lives, so what is more important than that?’”
In their sit-down interview back in August, Durant and Green rehashed the incident and how it ultimately affected KD’s decision to leave the Warriors. Surprisingly, KD claimed it wasn’t the beef itself that pushed him away, but the way Steve Kerr, Bob Myers and the front office handled things. “It wasn’t the argument,” the former Warriors star said. “It was the way that everybody … Steve Kerr acted like it didn’t happen. Bob Myers tried to just discipline you and think that would put a mask over everything. I really felt that was such a big situation for us as a group, the first time we went through something like that. We had to get that s— all out.”